Five years later, I am finally back.
The last time I posted something on this website, talking or writing in French was still much easier for me, but as a lot can change in five years I became weirdly better at expressing my feelings in English!
This time, I am back in France and found myself in that good old city of mine called Brest, again. They say New York is the city that never sleeps. Well, I would say Brest is the city that never changes. Everything is still the same. Including my love for music. And I have been missing doing interviews of my favourite artists a lot.
So I’m bringing DYWD back from the dead.
And I guess I needed someone special to start over again. So when I saw that Peter Hook, from Joy Division and New Order, was playing in Brest on the 22nd of March, I felt like it was a sign. And just like that, last Thursday at 4 pm, I found myself anxiously clicking on « Start the Zoom meeting » to discuss about music, grief and his career with one of the most influential Mancunian musicians.

This interview is quite special for me, it’s the first one in a while, after a long pause as I was living in Manchester for a few years. So, when I saw that you were playing in Brest, I thought it was the perfect way to kick things off again ! Thank you for accepting!

Hooky : Oh wow!  Tell me this, though. Did you enjoy Manchester?!

Yes! I did enjoyed it, everything was different, so many things to do, to see and many concerts that I never thought I would go to.

Hooky : What did you do there?

I was working as a translator and copywriter mainly.

Hooky : Oh, good for you! So is it strange being back?

It is, actually!

Hooky : I mean Manchester is an unusual place. But I must admit I have always gone back.

Have you ever been to Brest before? It’s kind of… Not the same, but both cities are quite punk in their way. 

Hooky : Yeah! I am very lucky, I live in Majorca. And now, myself and my wife use the journey to Majorca to get to know France. You know, all those years, we just went straight to Spain and we had sort of a revelation. So, we do actually spend quite a lot of time in France, funnily enough.
It’s funny, because the first tour we did after Covid was France. And oh, my god! We had such a wonderful tour! Everybody went berserk! I’d like to think it was us but I think, you know, that thing about the relief being post covid, and everybody sort of being able to get back to normal… We had the wildest times! Literally, in all these years, it was one of the best tours I have ever done! It was fantastic! I mean, I know it’s always too much to hope for but if it’s anything, the atmosphere was incredible. So, I’m hoping we get that again…

I’m sure you will! You are in Valencia right now, aren’t you?

Hooky : Yes, we’ve brought the weather from Manchester with us. Very grey, very dark. It’s not raining today, which is good. I know Valencia quite well obviously, because I spend a lot of time in Majorca and Spain. So, I feel quite home.

The tour is starting tonight. How do you feel about it?

Hooky : I’m a little nervous – more than a little nervous, because we had three months off. It was well needed. I think it’s one of those funny things when you get into the rhythm of doing it, you know, every night… The nerves sort of don’t hang on you. So tonight it’s a weird one, you always feel like you can’t do it you know. You are like « I don’t know, I can’t do it. » And even though you’ve practiced, you’re like « Oh shit! Oh, god! »

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And you’ve been touring for years!

Hooky : Yes, I mean, I always believe in the way that Lou Reed said… He said that if you’re not nervous before a performance, you shouldn’t be doing it. It’s quite an interesting way because performing, as my therapist tells me, is very addictive. Most musicians suffer from that same thing that you think nobody loves you, unless you’re performing. That always makes me laugh about all these farewell tours. And, really, it’s just their first farewell, because most musicians never give up. It is the worst kind of drug. It is a funny thing to do. I adore it. Being able to play all the music of New Order and Joy Division is very freeing for me. The greatest frustration I had was not being able to play Joy Division, because others wouldn’t play it, and not being able to play most of the songs we had written as New Order, because the others wouldn’t play them. So to be actually free of them and be able to do exactly what I want, when I want, is wonderful for me.

You are playing both Joy Division and New Order’s Substance albums. Given that they are quite different, did you have any challenges to make them coexist on stage ?

Hooky : Yes, there is a middle ground that you have to find and I think that we have found it with the amount of work we have put into the performance. I mean, New Order’s Substance is all hits, most people know all the songs, even the lesser known songs like Shellshock and State Of The Nation… People are aware of them. The Joy Division ones are much more intense songs. They are different and much less well known. But I must admit that when we first started as The Light, when we played Joy Division material, all the New Order fans would go to the bar. And during New Order material, all the Joy Division fans would go to the bar. Nowadays, they don’t do that.
We tend to be able to keep them for all the performances, and I do know that it is quite an ask. I mean, like, tonight, we will be playing 30 songs, so it is a hell of an ask for people!
But I suppose it is me… Every time we finish an LP, I hate to let it go, because in New Order I had to let them all go. It was a strange position to be in and even watching the so-called New Order now… I don’t count as New Order in any way, shape or form. They play so few songs and they play them, in my opinion, shall we say differently? I won’t say badly. They might think the bit the same about me.
I’m glad to be free to be honest and to play Get ready as we are in April, which is the next LP in my list – I’ve only got 2 more after that. I better get on with it, though, before I hit 80!

When you first started playing with The Light, you said taking the role of the singer was a challenge for you, does it still feel that way?

Hooky : Yeah, I mean you always know that there is a hell of an expectation, particularly for Joy Division, because of everybody’s love for Ian (Curtis).
I like to think that over the years we have proved to people, who were very cynical at first.
To be castigated for wanting to play music that you had written is very strange. « You shouldn’t be doing it. » I was going on « Who are you to tell me what I should be doing?! » It was a very strange position to be in…
But the keyboard warriors, as we call them, did manage to get rid of all the singers that I had lined up. They scared them off – three of them. I was amazed. And it was Rowetta from The Happy Mondays who simply said to me « Hooky, if you’re gonna do this, you’re gonna have to sing! » And I went like « What?! » 
As it turned out, me singing and then bringing my son in, has been wonderful. My son is playing with me. I don’t know if you know him, but he is the bass player for The Smashing Pumpkins as well.

 Yes, I have read that!

Hooky : He has done really well, you know, outside. So that is wonderful to play with him! Although, my god, he’s bossy! I don’t know where he gets it from, but he is very bossy!
Strangely enough, he was lining up to be a translator, too. Jack was learning five languages. And he was all set to be a translator and then I gave him the bass playing… And on his final year, of course, he came with me. Oh, man, his mother was devastated! I’ll tell you that… But luckily for him and for me, he has gone on to, you know, do quite good things.
But singing was a tough thing to take on, and to relax doing Joy Division… It took me about… Six, nine months of playing before I actually got to the point where I could relax.
Cause Ian’s shoes felt very big to fill. When I started playing New Order, Bernard’s were the same size as mine so it wasn’t a problem. And because we had worked on the vocal lines and the lyrics together, it was quite natural to just take over that role.
I know I’m different. And Potsy – my old friend from Monaco*, helps me out a lot, you know. He does the high bits and I do the low bits. So it works. But it did take a long time for people to accept what you were doing, to accept that it was done with the right amount of passion, shall we say? And that it was done with love.

(*Peter Hook & David Potts’ side project formed in 1995)

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When you talk about New Order, the frustration or anger is palpable. You also said that you have been grieving a lot during your life and your career : whether it was people – such as Ian Curtis, Joy Division, New Order, The Haçienda. How do you feel about this now? How do you deal with it?

Hooky : Oh, how do I deal with it?! My god… I don’t deal with it very well sometimes.
What they did was particularly disgusting because of the way it affected me, and my family… And to be honest with you, there was no need for it. 
I’m watching it now with The Happy Mondays, going through it with Rowetta. It is the same thing, there was no need for the way that they treated her. They could have sat down, sorted everything out, and once you got over the shock, it would have been fine. But to do it the way they did, which I felt was very underhand, and was purely for financial benefit – I think, it was wrong. I felt like it was absolutely wrong. I still do. I can’t stand them. I abhor what they did and I abhor those people. I really do. It was disgusting. I still think it is and we have never met.
We have never met for… Years and years! It is very sad, and it is very damaging, you know, not particularly you, but also the people around you that you have damaged with it.
So I do have to be very careful.
My wife is always telling me off for not appreciating what I have got and instead, you know, continually looking back at what happened. She is wonderful! She keeps me going…

And, do you think getting back to play Joy Division and New Order has been a way to grieve for you?

Hooky : No, no, I don’t grieve. Literally, it was the opposite. I was grieving all the years that I wasn’t able to play. That was the biggest grief. Being able to play is wonderful, and it also gave me a wonderful appreciation for Ian by singing his words and his lyrics.
As a musician in a band, it took me to a different place. I’m so proud of it.
And the thing is that Joy Division hardly went anywhere. You can literally count on two hands the places where we went… So whenever I get the opportunity, like to play as we did in Mongolia, China, Russia, America, South America, all over the world…
It was exactly what Ian told me would happen. Whenever I fretted about Joy Division, about our lack of success, Ian would always sit me down and go « Don’t worry, Hooky! We will play everywhere in the world. Our music will be known everywhere. » He was so good at that, you know, at keeping you going. And he was absolutely right. It is just the saddest thing that he is not there to be part of it, but in a funny way he is a part of it, and always will be.

Music has been my way to – kind of – deal with anger and grief. I think this website was born out of this. Almost like a therapy. I was confronted to grief really young and even though I don’t play, music gave me people to look up to. You know, there were people like Iggy Pop and John Lydon, who made me accept myself, accept the anger, all the feelings that I could neither control nor understand… You said that The Sex Pistols spoke to your teenage angst…

Hooky : You know what is the strangest thing about grief when you’re young? In our case, we were allowed to ignore the grief, you know, and just push it to one side.
When you are young, you think that the world is about to end. So everything is rushed. And you rush into things, and make mistakes. But now that I’m an older man – I wouldn’t say wiser, certainly not wiser… You realize that we should have took time off to grieve for our friend, and then grieve for the loss of the group. But we didn’t. We threw ourselves into New Order, and people allowed us to ignore it.
The pain… And this is the thing that I realise now, as an older person… We should have felt the pain. It would have been better for us. I mean, ironically, it worked for New Order. We began to live and breathe New Order 24/7. And it made New Order a success, so sadly it had a positive side.
But we should have grieved at the time. We should have grieved, we should have shown the proper respect for our grief. I think.
I also have lost my parents a long time ago. It’s an awful awful thing to go through. I think about them every day, particularly my mother, who was my absolute mentor in life. I do think about her every day. She was wonderful. And I’ll tell you one thing… You’re obviously quite young, but the older you get, in a strange way, the more you… Like my mother was 74 when she passed and I am 69, so that is an odd feeling.
On this birthday, I will admit that it wasn’t fun. I had a peculiar way of looking at reaching 69. I really did. Physically, I feel the same, and mentally, I feel the same but there was something landmarky about it. There was something, some feeling that I’m not even sure if I’ve come to terms with it yet. Maybe tonight I might be able to, you know, put it into context. It is a strange thing. It is also a strange thing to have so much history, as you say, from The Sex Pistols… My career has lasted 49 years, I was 20 when I started!

And your career had a massive impact on so many things! Just on Manchester for example. There is something different, that I can’t really explain. I guess you have to see it by yourself, but you can feel the weight that music had or has on the city. Whether it’s New Order or Joy Division, The Smiths, The Stone Roses, Buzzcocks, or even Oasis…

Hooky : There is gravity, isn’t there? There is a gravity in it.

Yes! It’s almost weird when you’ve never been in this city before, because you can see people and everything coming together through music.

Hooky : The landmarks are coming thick and fast, because Mike Joyce from The Smiths managed to get a mural done for Andy Rourke, which is perfectly in situ in Tib Street. It’s right in the middle of Tib Street, in a pub setback, and it looks fantastic. So, now we’ve not only got Ian on The Star & Garter. We’ve also got Andy Rourke in the middle of Tib Street.
And these landmarks actually emphasize the gravity, in the same way that Oasis with their reappearance this year will emphasize the gravity of that period. And talking to Noel (Gallagher) about it is amazing! Noel did a panel at my wife’s book launch – The Haçienda, Threads where she celebrated all the people and the fashion and cultures that came out of The Haçienda. Well, Noel very kindly came along and did a panel. And talking to him about it… He is as aware as anybody of the importance that that era gave to Manchester. Madchester, in particular, went right round the world. It was an incredible thing to be part of and to actually watch. It was amazing!

Has it been kind of heavy on you, at some point, in your career? Being part of bands that had so much importance and influence ?

Hooky : Well, you know what? I was very lucky. I’ve been in the right place at the right time, many, many times. Like to be at that Sex Pistols gig. I knew exactly where the gig was being held because it was where my work’s do was, so that is one of the reasons why I went to it. That was quite – very actually – important. And then to go on and go through Joy Division as we did, New Order, the Haçienda, Acid House, post-punk, Madchester… I was like « Bloody hell! We must have done something right! » you know? Get in as embroiled in so many different ways of life, and because of the time those happenings were massive happenings. I’m not sure you’ll ever see any like that, that big, again. I think that is what fascinates people. I went to The Sex Pistols without a clue, then joined a band when I didn’t even have an instrument, and I certainly had never played one. And then, all of a sudden, you look round and you’ve been in that band, more or less, for 49 years, and I’m like « What?! »

That was actually my next question. If you didn’t go to that Sex Pistol’s gig at the Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall that night of the 4th of June 1976, do you think you would be playing music?

Hooky : No! No, I was absolutely in awe of The Sex Pistols’ performance. I had been to see Led Zeppelin that week… I had seen Deep Purple, Santana, all these heavy metal bands/rock bands…
And I never, ever looked at them, and thought that I could do that! And all of a sudden I watch The Sex Pistols… They were awful! It sounded awful! They spent the whole night telling everyone to fuck off!

Haha, as they still do!

Hooky : It was absolutely terrible, and I thought for one insane reason, that I could do that! 
Barney and I, together, the two of us, thought we could do it! And lo and behold, we both bloody did! We were only friends from school, so the chances of both of us being able to do it were pretty slim. But yeah, we both managed to do it, and together.
I mean strangely, it cost you your friendship, because working together is so different. It is not like being friends. So, it cost you that, but it was a small price to play, to say the least.

Over the years, you have also been working on side projects. The one that always pops in my mind whenever I hear your name is the one that you did with Gorillaz during lockdown, with the song Aries.

Hooky : Yes! Damon (Albarn) gave me a number one in lockdown. God bless him! I did it just about three weeks before lockdown, I think.
I mean, I was terrified. I was a fan, and even though I had known Damon, I had known Alex (James from Blur) a lot, you know quite well… To actually work with him, because he’s so gifted and so driven, I was absolutely bloody terrified! And the weird thing was that on the day, as I was driving down, I was saying to my wife « Oh, god, I’m so nervous! » and she’s like « Don’t be stupid! » Then Damon rang me and said to me « Hooky, I’m not going to be in the studio, I’m busy… » and I went « Oh, man! The relief! I’ll be able to do it without him! Fantastic! »
So then I was made up. I got to the studio, sat down, and literally I was just about to walk in to start playing, right? And he came and touched me on the shoulder and went « Hooky, I canceled the appointment. » I was like « Oh, you bastard! »
So yeah, it was very, very nerve wracking, but we managed to do it in literally two hours! And it was done.
What a lovely song! And to have him come and play it, with The Light, as we did when we played Shepherd’s Bush Empire or Hammersmith Apollo, was great. I really really appreciated!

It was the soundtrack of the lockdown for me. I love Gorillaz and Damon’s work, but this song is special. I love it so much. I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve been listening to it, it is one of my favorite songs ever.

Hooky : I’ll tell you… Doesn’t he write some wonderful songs?!

He does!

Hooky : Oh, I don’t know how he does it. I really don’t.
He’s so… He just lives for it! I mean I do, but not to that extend. So even I’m in awe of that.
I love Gorillaz. I have always been a fan of the cartoons, of Tank girl, right from, you know, when it started with the magazine Deadline…
I have always been a fan of Jamie (Hewlett) anyway, and to see the way that they do it, the way that they present their music and the way that they do it in such a wonderful comic book fashion… I think it is really, really charming, endearing.
And oh, my god! That stream that we did in London was incredible!

The Song Machine live from Kong, the one where you all played the album – with Robert Smith, Beck and the guys from Slaves (now called Soft Play)?

Hooky : Yes! And we had the video streaming live right around the world. It was so nerve wracking. But what a wonderful thing to achieve, and to watch and be part of. 
Damon is… He’s a hell of a character! I will say that. And the way he brings people together for his own end is… Yeah, he is like an evil genius. He is like the evil genius of music!

I don’t know if I still have time…

Hooky : You’ve got 4 more minutes. Then I’ve got to get ready.

So I’ll skip some questions then.

Hooky : No, don’t worry about that, it’s been nice talking to you.

It was!
So, this will be my last one, you’ll be playing in Brest in almost 2 weeks now. I know that it will be the last show of this leg of the tour. Then you will be touring in the UK and in the US, is there any place you particularly love playing?

Hooky : You know what? I’m always willing to give any audience a chance. It doesn’t bother me, I mean it’s very sad looking at the world the way it is now, because we used to have great gigs in Russia, in China. We have been very, very lucky, and you know, I often speak to Ian and tell him where we are going. You know. I mean, we even did a gig in Mongolia. We did a Joy Division gig in Mongolia. Absolutely fantastic! It’s funny, it’s like someone saying to you « What size of audience do you like to play to? » Well, I remember Joy Division doing a gig in Oldham. Nobody came. No one came.

When was it?

Hooky : It was in 1978. We played and nobody came. And then you end up like 10 or 12 years later, playing Glastonbury to 175 000 people. 
I always say, as long as it’s in between naught and 175 000 then I’m happy! And I don’t care where they are or who they are… I just feel, especially with the Joy Division and the New Order fans, I feel in good company. We really have got a lot in common, and to me it is like being with friends.
This is what I found so frustrating in New Order, that the other members of the band would not allow you to go and play. If you did go and play, you were only allowed to play 15 or 17 songs that never changed. I’d be there going « Well, what about all the others? » And they’d go « No, not playing them, not playing them. » I was like « Fucking hell! »
Oh, man, it was severely traumatic, and you know the great thing is that if you look at an LP like Get Ready that we’ll be playing in April, over half of the songs on it have never been played.
We didn’t play them, and I think the other half of the songs were played very little, so it’s weird. A lot of fans are looking forward to it and blow me down.
Even though I thought it was a very difficult album, because me and Bernard did most of the work on it ourselves, just the two of us. It was a proper honeymoon at that period, but when we started playing again it all went wrong. It felt a bit funny for me. It felt a bit odd in the same way that Republic did; but lo and behold when I played Republic, I loved it.The Light played it so well. I was really proud of them.
And listening to Get Ready now, as we’re practicing, I’m realizing that it is actually coming to life. I think it’s going to be wonderful to play. I am really enjoying playing it already, you know. It was weird having to go back to Substance.
I’m really looking forward to playing it. I think the next gig is going to be about 45 songs. I don’t want to let any of the Joy Division go. I don’t want to let any of the New Order that we are playing go now. And then, we’ve got 15 for Get Ready. It’s like I’ll be locking everybody in and not letting them go!

Yes, Ian told me the show was 2H30, so I’m really looking forward to see it!

Hooky :  Well, the greatest gig I’ve ever done to be honest with you was when we played a charity gig for the church in Macclesfield – where Ian Curtis used to go to when he was a kid. And we played every Joy Division song and recorded it in one go. That was amazing. 45 songs in one go. 
I didn’t know whether I’d be able to do it, and neither did the boys, but we did it! And it was so wonderful to play in the church where Ian used to go when he was a kid. He used to sing in the choir, and he used to go to the Youth Club in that church. It was a very special moment. And so we were in Macclesfield, where he was born as well. Gigs like that are quite rare. I think the capacity of that gig was 400 and it was oversubscribed a hundred times. So many people wanted to go to it because of the location. So yeah, I’m lucky. I’m a very lucky boy.

Well thank you for your time! I’m looking forward to seeing you in Brest!

Hooky : Well, if you get the chance, come and say hello.